Limitless Podcast

Josh:
Open ai just finished their dev day live from

Josh:
san francisco where they announced a bunch of cool new developer tools that

Josh:
will be accessible to everybody today but also for

Josh:
people like us who are users of them very very soon so there was a series of

Josh:
announcements we're going to get right into it we're going to try to cover everything

Josh:
in 20 minutes so if you stick with us you'll know everything about everything

Josh:
that open ai just announced today starting with their agent sdk right you just

Josh:
can you walk us through what i guess your first reactions may be to what you

Josh:
just saw before we even get into everything?

Ejaaz:
Well, my first reaction is probably your reaction to seeing this image right here, Josh.

Ejaaz:
Now, there are a lot of big numbers on this, but I think the thing that kind

Ejaaz:
of stood out to both of us actually, we were discussing it before we started

Ejaaz:
recording this, was 800 million weekly ChatGPT users.

Ejaaz:
Do you remember when this was 500 million quoted like three months ago?

Josh:
They were the fastest to get to 1 million users, and we thought that was incredible.

Josh:
They did it in like five days.

Josh:
They're getting close to a billion. It's remarkable the progress that they're

Josh:
making and how fast and how big they're getting.

Ejaaz:
So you You mentioned something, well, you basically said apps inside ChatGPT,

Ejaaz:
and I think you were referring to one of three major announcements that they

Ejaaz:
made on this live stream, which was the Apps SDK,

Ejaaz:
which basically allows you to connect your app through ChatGPT such that any

Ejaaz:
one of their 800 million weekly active users can get access to your app.

Ejaaz:
Congratulations. OpenAI has officially become the welcome mat to the internet.

Ejaaz:
Formerly, it was Google.

Ejaaz:
And now if you want your app to have access to the hundreds of millions and

Ejaaz:
billions of users on the internet, you probably kind of want to go through OpenAI.

Ejaaz:
What's cool about this new update, Josh, is...

Ejaaz:
It has full access to MCP, which is an open protocol. And you and I have gone

Ejaaz:
back and forth about like closed versus open.

Ejaaz:
MCP basically allows any app to connect to OpenAI or to any AI model.

Ejaaz:
And also importantly, allows you to connect any of your data to it as well.

Ejaaz:
And the reason why this is important is it's one thing allowing ChatGPT access

Ejaaz:
to a tool, which is what we've seen OpenAI enable about seven months ago, right?

Ejaaz:
And it didn't really get anywhere. now if

Ejaaz:
you have access to mcp and a direct line to

Ejaaz:
the chat gpt store you can start to

Ejaaz:
see this as a bit of an evolution so they

Ejaaz:
had an example uh here josh where you know

Ejaaz:
you could be talking to chat gpt and say you want to book hotels and

Ejaaz:
it selects xpedia or booking.com or

Ejaaz:
something like that they have something where you can access canva to create

Ejaaz:
like your own poster and the major step that they've had from enabling GPT plugins

Ejaaz:
to what they have today is ChatGPT kind of decides what app it needs to pick

Ejaaz:
for you instead of you picking it for it, right?

Ejaaz:
And it kind of has the context throughout the conversation without needing to

Ejaaz:
remind it like, hey, you need to use this information to do A, B, and C.

Josh:
So for the people who are listening to this that are not developers like myself,

Josh:
This might not seem super interesting.

Josh:
And I want to kind of frame this in a way that is interesting because us

Josh:
as users are going to see a lot of these interesting downstream effects kind of

Josh:
as they go this is the early seeding of it that's kind

Josh:
of what this event is today it's for developers by

Josh:
developers and there's just a lot of these complicated terms like an

Josh:
sdk and an api but the reality of what they're doing

Josh:
now and the reality of this first batch of news that we're talking about

Josh:
is chat gpt is creating an app store for the

Josh:
chat gpt application is an easy way of framing this and

Josh:
basically what's happening is normally in order to use like we're

Josh:
seeing on screen an app like xpedia you go to xpedia.com you

Josh:
open up your mobile app on your phone you go on the

Josh:
desktop app on your your computer but it's not

Josh:
natively integrated into the chat gpt experience so a

Josh:
few of the things that they showed the few examples like we're seeing right

Josh:
here is now when you want to book a flight through xpedia you

Josh:
don't actually have to leave the open ai chat

Josh:
gpt application you can do it directly from within the

Josh:
application and that's kind of the novel breakthrough with this sdk that

Josh:
they're releasing to everybody is now you can engage with

Josh:
applications that you use on a daily basis but they're kind

Josh:
of enhanced and augmented by inline ai

Josh:
so if you want to book your flight now chat gpt

Josh:
has the context of your calendar it has the context of your emails

Josh:
It has the context of all the the chatting that you've been doing with it it

Josh:
can go and it can seek out those flights for example and suggest which ones

Josh:
to book and they're doing that with a whole bunch of different examples they

Josh:
had one with zillow where you can actually browse homes and then for example

Josh:
if you find a home in a relevant area you could ask well how is the school system

Josh:
there and how close is as a senior grocery store.

Josh:
And you could get additional context that you never really could prior to this integration.

Josh:
So Ejaz, for me, one of the more interesting parts of this entire presentation

Josh:
that they did was just how

Josh:
They were trying to approach the problem of solving it directly within their

Josh:
app instead of going to the browser. I think with perplexity,

Josh:
they created their own browser.

Josh:
With Anthropic, they created a browser extension where it kind of embeds itself

Josh:
into the browser. ChatGPT is saying, no, no, no, no, no.

Josh:
We have 800 million weekly active users. You're coming to us and you're going

Josh:
to give us your tools and we're going to augment the experience for our users.

Josh:
But please come to us and we're going to make that experience great.

Ejaaz:
I don't think that this is a

Ejaaz:
surprise josh because i don't know

Ejaaz:
if this is a hot take at all but i don't know if

Ejaaz:
it matters if it's a browser or directly in

Ejaaz:
a chat interface like chat gpt here i think it's become a business development

Ejaaz:
game a partnership strategy game aka if open ai can partner with all the biggest

Ejaaz:
companies and shops in the world e-commerce sites in the world then And they

Ejaaz:
will probably likely provide the best shopping experience,

Ejaaz:
the best agent experience, the best app experience.

Ejaaz:
And I think there's good reason for them to pursue something like this, right?

Ejaaz:
I actually mentioned on the episode

Ejaaz:
that went out today on OpenAI's personalization and memory features.

Ejaaz:
You guys should check out that episode if you haven't seen it already.

Ejaaz:
That personalization and memory are OpenAI's biggest modes.

Ejaaz:
It makes the product incredibly sticky because ChatGPT suddenly knows everything

Ejaaz:
about you. It goes from feeling like a tool to feeling like a friend.

Ejaaz:
And this is kind of the similar jump that they've made with apps.

Ejaaz:
If I am using ChatGPT and it has all the context on me and it understands the

Ejaaz:
conversation I've just had about it.

Ejaaz:
For example, I don't know what fridge I want to buy for my new house.

Ejaaz:
So I'm obviously going to ChatGPT.

Ejaaz:
I'm checking out what the latest brands are, what the better price points are

Ejaaz:
within my budget. And then I find an answer, right?

Ejaaz:
But if ChatGPT can then go out and buy that for me, I don't want to leave the site.

Ejaaz:
Like, why would I want to go to that? Why do I want to scroll and click open

Ejaaz:
another tab, sign in via Gmail or whatever that might be?

Ejaaz:
There's so many reasons which I will be lazy for it. And this makes ChatGPT

Ejaaz:
incredibly attractive.

Josh:
Yeah, I think it's a big breakthrough for why people are going to be excited to use ChatGPT.

Josh:
I'm personally excited to try

Josh:
these features in line because it kind of augments the whole experience.

Josh:
Like every time you use the internet, it's now enhanced by all of the context that you've given it.

Josh:
So we frequently ask, and you mentioned on the episode that dropped today,

Josh:
is memory going to be portable? And maybe the answer is it doesn't matter because

Josh:
all of the stuff we're going to be doing is actually in the ChatGPT app itself.

Josh:
So that could be an interesting way this plays out.

Ejaaz:
I also just want to say that if I'm being honest, I'm kind of unimpressed by this product launch.

Ejaaz:
And I have to get it off my chest because about eight months ago,

Ejaaz:
OpenAI released what they call the GPT App Store, or some version of an app store.

Ejaaz:
And back then it was a plugin interface where they advertised,

Ejaaz:
hey, you can now plug in a Resi or OpenTable or a Zapier or whatever that might be.

Ejaaz:
And suddenly you get access to these apps, to these tools, but they didn't call

Ejaaz:
them apps. They called them tools.

Ejaaz:
And they said, you can now add this tool in ChatGPT and it'll use it.

Ejaaz:
And that kind of ended up flunking, Josh.

Ejaaz:
No one actually spoke about it in the last eight months since it launched.

Ejaaz:
And this doesn't seem to dissimilar. In fact, they're using a bunch of the same

Ejaaz:
partners that they started.

Ejaaz:
So I'm optimistic in the sense that this is an evolution from that,

Ejaaz:
where, you know, it comes across as more natural.

Ejaaz:
The products get integrated into my conversation. I don't need to tell it what

Ejaaz:
to do, but I'm still not wowed by it.

Ejaaz:
And maybe that's just me being a doomer, but I don't really see this as the

Ejaaz:
chat GPT app store that this tweet that we have on our screen resembles or depicts it as.

Ejaaz:
I see it more as something before that, where it's just for devs only.

Ejaaz:
And I haven't really seen the magic.

Josh:
Yeah, we'll see. It's funny. I downloaded a total of zero apps in that first

Josh:
version, Ejaz. I never used one. I think it was totally useless.

Josh:
Well, it seems like there's a possibility that the incentive structure has been

Josh:
flipped now because of the amount of users that ChatGPT has,

Josh:
where there's a very strong incentive to come and build for the platform.

Josh:
And there's a very strong incentive for ChatGPT to offer these because the more

Josh:
value they add, the less you have to leave the app. So we'll see.

Josh:
I guess it's one of those things we'll see. That was one of the two major announcements

Josh:
that they shared. The second is their agent kit. So, Ijaz, I know you love your AI agents.

Josh:
Can you please tell us, what did they just announce in the world of agent generation?

Ejaaz:
So, I love AI agents. I haven't really loved how they've materialized in the

Ejaaz:
real world just yet. And my biggest gripe with AI agents is they just haven't been able to do stuff.

Ejaaz:
So, when OpenAI today announced something they're calling the Agent Kit,

Ejaaz:
I got really excited. They advertised it, Sam advertised it as taking agents

Ejaaz:
from prototype to production.

Ejaaz:
And there's three core capabilities that they announced.

Ejaaz:
One called the agent builder, the other called the chat kit,

Ejaaz:
which is kind of like a chat interface that you can embed in any app or agent

Ejaaz:
that you build and evals for agents. So basically measuring how good your agent is.

Ejaaz:
But the most exciting one of those three is the agent builder,

Ejaaz:
Josh, which is a no code interface that anyone, including you or I,

Ejaaz:
can use to spin up an agent in a matter of minutes. And that's actually what they did live on stream.

Ejaaz:
And what's cool about this is it, have you ever used kind of like a graph builder

Ejaaz:
software, Josh? I know you use it to kind of like create like design flows.

Ejaaz:
It looks pretty much identical to that. So you can kind of like spin up a box,

Ejaaz:
literally a shape of a box, and that represents your agent.

Ejaaz:
You can then click on that agent and give it a personality, explain what it needs to do.

Ejaaz:
And that uses ChatGPT on the backend and it automatically creates some code

Ejaaz:
and creates that agent for you. and you can kind of like move that agent across

Ejaaz:
to maybe work with another agent that you've created.

Ejaaz:
And it kind of becomes this kind of gamified system of making an agent.

Ejaaz:
And this agent builder, they describe it as a canvas to build agents.

Ejaaz:
And it builds on top of the existing APIs that they have, as well as a few new ones.

Ejaaz:
And then ChatKit is this embeddable chat interface for your agent.

Ejaaz:
So if you imagine, Josh, you and I create an agent that goes out and does a

Ejaaz:
bunch of research for the next couple of episodes that we're going to do for this week, right?

Ejaaz:
So imagine it gets all this information, it pulls all these article links and

Ejaaz:
it does all the research, it gives us some nice concise summaries.

Ejaaz:
But we don't necessarily want to read all those summaries. So maybe we just

Ejaaz:
want to talk to the agent itself.

Ejaaz:
We can just slap in an iMessage-like interface and talk to it.

Ejaaz:
And most importantly, not only can you and I talk to that agent,

Ejaaz:
but other agents can talk to it.

Ejaaz:
So the main takeaway for me here, and I want to get into your thoughts in a second, is...

Ejaaz:
We've gone from needing to know and write code to create these automated programs

Ejaaz:
that do stuff for us to not just being able to write in plain English and have the thing do the thing.

Josh:
Yeah, that was the thing that stood out most to me during this section is normally

Josh:
when I watch these developer days, I feel mostly excluded because,

Josh:
you know, I don't really write that much code.

Josh:
I'm not super familiar with how all this stuff works. But as I was watching

Josh:
the demos of how this agent builder worked, it was very similar to tools I've used before.

Josh:
Like you mentioned, like I use Excalibur because I love to create these visual

Josh:
design graphics. Even DaVinci Resolve, the way that we edit a lot of these podcasts,

Josh:
it has this kind of visual node graph where you just drag things and you connect

Josh:
things and it's very much like a playground.

Josh:
And they turned agent building into that type of playground where it's all in

Josh:
plain English. It's all very visual.

Josh:
It was really exciting because I think a lot of people are soon going to try

Josh:
to experiment with being a creator themselves and building things where you

Josh:
genuinely don't need to use code.

Josh:
And now if I need to have something built, I can just try to make my own agent.

Josh:
And the lady in the example who is, i think her name was christina she

Josh:
was on stage she built an entire agent in eight minutes using zero

Josh:
lines of code and it worked amazing so for that i'm

Josh:
really excited we have this take on the screen from greg eisenberg it says agent

Josh:
engineering is the new prompt engineering which very much feels true

Josh:
um again the hottest new coding language is english um

Josh:
if you can prompt an agent to do things it's

Josh:
like a prompting a large language model on steroids you can

Josh:
kind of compound you could use all these tools together it creates this really

Josh:
fun opportunity so i think the downstream effects of this are going to be worth

Josh:
observing i guess we'll follow along and see what people are actually building

Josh:
with this because it left me feeling optimistic that like hey maybe we actually

Josh:
can try to to build some tools ourselves do you agree disagree i

Ejaaz:
Agree um and i i think that we might see some of the best examples come from

Ejaaz:
the people that combine this agent kit

Ejaaz:
with the app SDK that we just spoke about, right? Like, it would be cool if

Ejaaz:
I could spin up an agent that doesn't just kind of like do fancy tool calling,

Ejaaz:
but can use the apps that I have spoken with in my other conversations,

Ejaaz:
right? It already has that context.

Ejaaz:
That being said, I'm a little skeptical, Josh.

Ejaaz:
Again, like, I don't know, I've got my, I must be feeling pretty doomerish today

Ejaaz:
for my takes, but I'm just kind of like, okay, the example that they live demoed

Ejaaz:
didn't really impress me.

Ejaaz:
Like the one that she built in eight minutes was a registration agent,

Ejaaz:
which can basically guide you on your way through OpenAI's Dev Day.

Ejaaz:
So it tells you when the next coming talk is happening and where to walk to. I don't really care.

Ejaaz:
Who cares? Like, go and do my shopping for me.

Ejaaz:
Manage my accounts and make me a million dollars. I'm down for that.

Ejaaz:
And maybe I'm asking for too much, but I don't really feel the magic. Okay.

Josh:
So maybe I have one example that could perhaps change your mind that I'm thinking

Josh:
of as you're describing this is all of our transcripts for all of our episodes,

Josh:
they're public. We put them on our transistor page.

Josh:
If you want to go subscribe to the RSS feed, please go do that.

Josh:
Within those transcripts are all of the words that we say labeled with who says it.

Josh:
And if we wanted to, in eight minutes, just like Christina did in that example,

Josh:
we could build an agent ourselves just by dragging and dropping and adding a

Josh:
few prompts that can analyze all of the transcripts that we've written,

Josh:
turn itself into a mini GPT and answer questions as if it was Josh or EJAS.

Josh:
And we could kind of query it against ourselves. We could ask,

Josh:
well, what do you think Josh would say in this situation? And get an answer

Josh:
is relatively decent based on creating this agent that you've trained in just a couple of minutes.

Josh:
And I think, again, like a big constraint is creativity, because there is a

Josh:
lot of ways that you can build these to do interesting things.

Josh:
And the hardest unlock is figuring out what to do, how to use the tools to make

Josh:
it interesting. So maybe that's one cool one. Like, I wouldn't hate it.

Ejaaz:
I would probably use that for the YouTube comments that we get.

Josh:
Our autoresponder.

Ejaaz:
Yeah, because I mean, I mean, some of you listeners are so, so active.

Ejaaz:
And I really, really appreciate that.

Ejaaz:
The feedback we've been getting, the thoughts, the comments,

Ejaaz:
the disagreements is what we live for.

Ejaaz:
And Josh and I have been trying to stay up late at night responding to you guys.

Ejaaz:
But hey, maybe an agent could have helped with that.

Ejaaz:
But Josh, what's funny about this announcement is they weren't the only ones

Ejaaz:
to announce an agent builder.

Ejaaz:
In fact, I think, what was it, eight to 10 hours ago, someone else announced

Ejaaz:
something. Can you walk us through this?

Josh:
Yeah, this is very funny. So as I was scrolling my timeline on X,

Josh:
looking for just like snippets from this presentation, I stumbled upon the 11

Josh:
Labs announcement, which I think was like five hours ago.

Josh:
And the video, if you could restart it just for people to watch,

Josh:
it's basically the same exact visual interface that OpenAI just announced today

Josh:
using the same terminology.

Josh:
So what you're seeing on screen is it's this very visual kind of graphing chart

Josh:
where you have these parameters and you could draw and connect these nodes on a graph.

Josh:
And it's really funny to see the convergence of ideas on how things are going

Josh:
to be built. like literally within hours of each other.

Josh:
So I think 11 labs, they front ran OpenAI.

Josh:
But the idea is that there is a directional trend here and that

Josh:
everything will be easier to actually engage with you will not need to write

Josh:
code you will be able to just do command the ai to your will and as these tools

Josh:
get more powerful you will have more and more creative leverage and it's just

Josh:
going to be this really cool self-fulfilling developer world where it's easy

Josh:
to become a developer because all you need to do is speak english to the model i'm

Ejaaz:
Telling you man it's going to become a business development game i mean everyone's

Ejaaz:
going to create some of these automated workflow products 11 labs anthropic's

Ejaaz:
probably going to come up with them.

Ejaaz:
Google's probably cooking up one that they're going to announce this week.

Ejaaz:
I know they've got a bunch of exciting announcements this week.

Ejaaz:
So I think this type of interface is going to become pretty commoditized.

Ejaaz:
What it's ultimately going to come to, and I've said this on previous episodes,

Ejaaz:
is how many users do you have and how high quality is the data that you own,

Ejaaz:
how useful is that data, basically.

Ejaaz:
And I think OpenAI in both regards still maintain the lead and to see like a

Ejaaz:
300 million weekly active user jump in a matter of months is just insane and

Ejaaz:
i'm still you know if i had to pick if i had to pick a winner open ai is still there yeah.

Josh:
Okay so so overall general thoughts of the presentation do we like dislike bullish bearish

Ejaaz:
I i liked it uh i am neutral on whether it's bullish or bearish because and

Ejaaz:
i explained to you uh before the show started josh that sam not too long ago was promising us AGI.

Ejaaz:
He was using all the acronyms under the sun to describe this amazing intelligence

Ejaaz:
that can do anything in the world for you.

Ejaaz:
And since then, he's kind of pivoted. He's focused more on applications.

Ejaaz:
He's sold us to social media apps or to release our sweet go check out that episode that we did.

Ejaaz:
If you haven't seen it already. And so I'm kind of left feeling like there's

Ejaaz:
a hole in my stomach that needs to be filled.

Ejaaz:
This wasn't it. But I'm hoping this is the step towards as something that fills that hole.

Josh:
Nice. Okay. For me, it's funny. This might sound ridiculous and I might dislike

Josh:
this take in hindsight, but it was my favorite presentation that OpenA has ever done.

Josh:
And this was mostly vibes based. I don't think in terms of actual delivery,

Josh:
it was anything exceptional.

Josh:
But the way that they held themselves in the presentation, the look,

Josh:
the styling, the delivery, the people who they brought on stage,

Josh:
the examples and how they delivered them.

Josh:
It was really this like flawless 60 minute presentation

Josh:
that was very highly produced looked very refined

Josh:
they clearly spent a lot of time on it and i just really admire that

Josh:
relative to a lot of the other presentations that we're seeing where even

Josh:
like the gpt5 presentation i got bored when they started showing health

Josh:
demos and stuff and as a non-developer i was engaged and

Josh:
excited and enthusiastic about this presentation so in terms

Josh:
of vibes at least i really appreciated the thought

Josh:
and care that they put into this and i think that

Josh:
probably just start wraps this up two other small little noteworthy things

Josh:
that i just want to drop at the end is that they did release the gpt5

Josh:
plus api which means developers can now query the smartest

Josh:
gpt model that's out there and also sora

Josh:
2 so the slop episode that we recorded last week well there's an api which means

Josh:
that any developer can reach out to this api and generate a near infinite number

Josh:
of ai slop or ai beauty depending on how you want to look at it and i'm sure

Josh:
we'll be seeing a lot more outputs of both of those models in the near future.

Ejaaz:
But that wraps it up. Sora 2, Sora 2, just before we wrap up,

Ejaaz:
is number one on the App Store, Josh.

Ejaaz:
And if any of you listeners want access to it, because Josh is a hater,

Ejaaz:
but I'm kind of a lover, if you want invite codes, we both have invite codes.

Ejaaz:
So comment. We do. I have four left. Give us your hottest take.

Ejaaz:
Give us your hottest take and we'll drop invite codes in the comments.

Josh:
Actually, yeah, that's a great incentive. I will. I have four left and I read

Josh:
every comment. So leave a good one and I'll drop a code in there.

Josh:
But yeah, that wraps it up. 20 minutes, you guys. we did it that was good that's

Josh:
the update that is everything that opening i announced today some noteworthy

Josh:
some not so noteworthy great time to be a developer let us know what you think

Josh:
in the comments below thank you for watching as always and we will see you guys in the next one